About Downtown

[westtexan]

The ones who want a stadium downtown...are those who are downtown property owners...who are only looking out for their own interests.

Are those downtown property owners...willing to donate their land free of charge...to build a stadium???

[horribilis]

The thing that bothers me about it...is that a lot of it appears to be an effort by some existing downtown business people to further increase their money.

The profit motive is what drives all development, as well as the rest of the capitalist engine. What are they supposed to do - donate it? If you want to see what that midset has done, see what wonders the socialist system has worked for the development of downtown Havana.

Most of the tall buildings in the downtowns of larger cities are hotels, banks and insurance companies. There has to be some business purpose to locate downtown, some pursuit of commerce.

Something that may work would be to block off a couple of blocks of streets somewhere between Polk and Buchanan and make it a downtown walking mall caterting to pedestrian traffic. Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce were minor presidents, why not make it on one of those streets between 6th and 10th avenues?

[Writer]

horribilis said:

The thing that bothers me about it...is that a lot of it appears to be an effort by some existing downtown business people to further increase their money.

The profit motive is what drives all development, as well as the rest of the capitalist engine. What are they supposed to do - donate it? If you want to see what that midset has done, see what wonders the socialist system has worked for the development of downtown Havana.

Most of the tall buildings in the downtowns of larger cities are hotels, banks and insurance companies. There has to be some business purpose to locate downtown, some pursuit of commerce.

Something that may work would be to block off a couple of blocks of streets somewhere between Polk and Buchanan and make it a downtown walking mall caterting to pedestrian traffic. Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce were minor presidents, why not make it on one of those streets between 6th and 10th avenues?

Hello? I said that, too! ;D

[petiepanzer]

horribilis said:

The thing that bothers me about it...is that a lot of it appears to be an effort by some existing downtown business people to further increase their money.

The profit motive is what drives all development, as well as the rest of the capitalist engine. What are they supposed to do - donate it? If you want to see what that midset has done, see what wonders the socialist system has worked for the development of downtown Havana.

Most of the tall buildings in the downtowns of larger cities are hotels, banks and insurance companies. There has to be some business purpose to locate downtown, some pursuit of commerce.

Something that may work would be to block off a couple of blocks of streets somewhere between Polk and Buchanan and make it a downtown walking mall caterting to pedestrian traffic. Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce were minor presidents, why not make it on one of those streets between 6th and 10th avenues?

That's fair enough. Of course, in regards to the profit motive and the Capitalist engine, it depends on what school of economic thought one ascribes. The Keynesians would say that the downtown redevelopment should be aided by a fresh injection of capital that would come from public sources. They would say that a taxpayer funded renovation of downtown would be beneficial to the economy because it would create jobs and provide a new center of commerce for the people of Amarillo. The followers of Hayek, however, would likely feel any type of reurbanization would need to come completely from private sources. They would think the Keynesian plan would require central planning, which they would deem as inefficient and too costly to the economy as a whole. I don't know how they plan on funding the new downtown revitalization, but groups like the AEDC all subscribe to the Keynesian school of economics.

A new shopping center downtown? Well, Amarillo certainly needs a new area for retail shopping. I see very few cars at the mall when I drive past it these days. They seem to be making very little progress on the demolition of Western Plaza. I thought they were going to put in some upscale shops at Hollywood and the Canyon E-Way, but it seems that is not going to materialize. Well, I guess they can build it next to the Horse track, the Nuclear Power Plant, and all of the other things Amarillo was supposed to get over the years, but never came to fruition. ;D

[horribilis]

Hello? I said that, too!

Hello to you too. I do not read every post, and some of these go on for pages. I read enough at the outset to formulate a response so I may not have read the complete thread. So if you said the same thing, all I can say is GMTA!.

That's fair enough. Of course, in regards to the profit motive and the Capitalist engine, it depends on what school of economic thought one ascribes.

There is only one school of economic thought. Ascribe to whatever school of thought you want to, but there is only truth in one of them. As I said before, if you want to see the ultimate truth of Marxism played out, take your next vacation at Chernobyl.

[amatx]

petiepanzer,

Since improper sentence structure or grammar may have led you to miss the point of my post, I'll conclude the fault as mine.

The intended point was that the primary attraction, or theme, of "Center City" revitalization should first appeal to Amarillo denizens, and then to the Panhandle's populace; promoting business catering to a foreign culture will fail due to insufficient support.

You wrote:
"Cultural enrichment enhances the lives of everybody in a community, not just the wealthy and elite. It provides entertainment for all people and helps to build a sense of community. It also strengthens the intellectual development for the youth of a community. It also provides a great relief of day to day stress that are often related to the job and home."

I agree, dependent upon what may comprise "cultural enrichment".

You wrote:
"I won't make an issue out of your statement, but please be aware that your comment could be considered both offensive and bigoted."

So?

You wrote:
"And DINKS, what is your problem with them?"

No problem.
Yes, I offered a very slight jab at a specific stereotype of self-absorbed, affectatious DINKS and gays; the type clearly superior to the common unlearned and uncultured procreating scum that populate the High Plains.

I find it amusing that you felt it necessary to defend all gays (and childless couples) by pointing to specific stereotypes, pretending those stereotypes as representative, and then displaying them as superior.

My bigoted post was aimed at the functional appropriateness of the direction of Downtown revitalization. This is a family-oriented city, and Midnight Rodeo does not constitute the preponderance of cultural entertainment here.

Perhaps I'm wrong; maybe we should host a semi-annual Gay Pride March to demonstrate those "better educated" "important features they provide for society as a whole" you touted. I might learn something.

[westtexan]

The downtown property owners...can either donate their land free of charge...for a baseball stadium...

or shut up...and let the new stadium be built out west...where most of the people and the money are.

[petiepanzer]

horribilis said:

Hello? I said that, too!

Hello to you too. I do not read every post, and some of these go on for pages. I read enough at the outset to formulate a response so I may not have read the complete thread. So if you said the same thing, all I can say is GMTA!.

That's fair enough. Of course, in regards to the profit motive and the Capitalist engine, it depends on what school of economic thought one ascribes.

There is only one school of economic thought. Ascribe to whatever school of thought you want to, but there is only truth in one of them. As I said before, if you want to see the ultimate truth of Marxism played out, take your next vacation at Chernobyl.

No, there are several schools of Economic Thought and the Keynesian school is one of them. The Keynesian model is used in mixed economies such as many in the EU and to a lesser degree in every major economy in the world, including that of the United States. The best example I can give would be that of Sweden. In their system, they still own private capital, but their tax rates are much higher than our own. As a result, there is not as much division between the haves and the have nots, their crime rate is much lower, health care is provided for everybody and a college education is automatically provided for anybody that cares to pursue one. On the flip side, they do not have the spirit of entrepreneurship that is found in this country. As there is little incentive for achievement, you seldom see individuals forging ahead and the work ethic suffers as a result. Also, they do not have the same level of innovation and seldom do they ever accomplish the same type of scientific break throughs that are seen in this country, i.e. research and development. I'm not saying one system is better than the other, but there is definitely a trade off involved. Those are 2 different ways of doing things, but are each successful in their own ways. The U.S. is fabulous for creating wealth, and Sweden has one of the highest standards of living in the world. Here at home, there are several examples of Keynesian economics at work. The most glaring example would be that of farm subsidies. Every year, the U.S. government helps to subsidize such wide ranging agricultural products as the dairy items to grain such as corn and wheat. In fact, the average wheat grower in this country receives about $25,000 in government subsidies. Now, some would call that welfare, but in a Keynesian's mind, that is helping to keep the economy flowing through government help by keeping production high. Another example of Keynesian economics is the Amarillo Economic Development Corporation. Through a half cent sales tax and taxes on motels and rental cars (I believe) here in Amarillo, the AEDC is able to offer many outside companies capital by relocating their operations here. In addition, they are able to offer these same companies tax breaks for certain periods of time, while the rest of the tax payers makes up the difference. So, while it is not exactly Marxism, there are certain firms in the private sector that do receive certain financial benefits from the government sector, via incentives that are realized through the collection of taxes. Are you following me?

As for the Chernobyl vacation, I think I will pass. You see, I have actually done a great deal of work in the FSU and have even been within 100 miles of the Chernobyl accident. I can assure you that it is not a pleasant experience to see children dying of cancer. The entire FSU is not like that, though, and there are actually many wonderful sights to see over there. I will say that St. Petersburg is quite possibly the most beautiful city I have ever seen. Here's a little tidbit that might interest you. Do you know which city has the most Billionaires in the world? New York, London, Hong Kong, Tokyo? Nope, Moscow has more billionaires that any city in the world. That is a pretty amazing fact, especially when one considers that there has only been a market economy over there for about the last 15 years.

[petiepanzer]

amatx said:

petiepanzer,

Since improper sentence structure or grammar may have led you to miss the point of my post, I'll conclude the fault as mine.

The intended point was that the primary attraction, or theme, of "Center City" revitalization should first appeal to Amarillo denizens, and then to the Panhandle's populace; promoting business catering to a foreign culture will fail due to insufficient support.

You wrote:
"Cultural enrichment enhances the lives of everybody in a community, not just the wealthy and elite. It provides entertainment for all people and helps to build a sense of community. It also strengthens the intellectual development for the youth of a community. It also provides a great relief of day to day stress that are often related to the job and home."

I agree, dependent upon what may comprise "cultural enrichment".

You wrote:
"I won't make an issue out of your statement, but please be aware that your comment could be considered both offensive and bigoted."

So?

You wrote:
"And DINKS, what is your problem with them?"

No problem.
Yes, I offered a very slight jab at a specific stereotype of self-absorbed, affectatious DINKS and gays; the type clearly superior to the common unlearned and uncultured procreating scum that populate the High Plains.

I find it amusing that you felt it necessary to defend all gays (and childless couples) by pointing to specific stereotypes, pretending those stereotypes as representative, and then displaying them as superior.

My bigoted post was aimed at the functional appropriateness of the direction of Downtown revitalization. This is a family-oriented city, and Midnight Rodeo does not constitute the preponderance of cultural entertainment here.

Perhaps I'm wrong; maybe we should host a semi-annual Gay Pride March to demonstrate those "better educated" "important features they provide for society as a whole" you touted. I might learn something.

Wow, you really seem to dislike educated people. Could you explain why you are so threatened by people that find a little bit of culture appealing?

I have the sinking suspicion that this is a futile debate with somebody that is unable to grasp what I am trying to convey. Regardless, I am going to give it my best and try to convey my reasoning to you.

One thing that Amarillo seems to suffer from is a shortage of educated, talented people. Less than 25% of all people in the city hold a bachelor's degree and less than 10% hold an advanced degree. This is far below the national average and is not a good thing for the future of the city's economy. In today's market place, a college degree holds about the same weight as a high school diploma did 30 years ago and most employers are going to require a college degree for employment in the very near future. Now, I am not sure about you, but I went to school in the AISD from K-12, so I do know a little bit about the patterns of the young people here in Amarillo. The best and the brightest get the heck out of here asap. They go off to school in places like Austin, Dallas, College Station, Houston, and countless other schools out of state. Now, unless they have some type of family business to take over, they will never return to Amarillo. The rather unremarkable ones stay in Amarillo. Some manage to graduate from AC and then leave for another school in another town, and some manage to graduate from WT. Most, however, just stay in Amarillo and end up working some meanial job before they get married a few years out of high school. This is not a good thing for people to get married so young. I saw in that paper on tuesday that some couple was getting married when both of them had only graduated in 2006. Why, you may ask, is it such a bad thing for people to get married so young? Because no 19 year old kid is going to know what they want at such an age. When one gets married so soon, their intellectual growth usually comes to a grinding halt. Statistics seem to back this up. People that get married before the age of 25 are much more likely to end up divorced and their earning potential is cut significantly by such actions. People should not get married because they feel societal pressure to do so. That type of thinking is why the United States has the highest divorce rate in the world. People should only get married because that is where their heart is leading them. Unfortunately, in towns like Amarillo, people tend to get married because they feel it is expected of them. People have their whole lives to be married but they are only young once.

So, what does all this have to do with downtown Amarillo, you ask? Well, as has already been established, Amarillo suffers from a brain drain. (I don't mean to hurt anybody's feelings with this statement, but I have found this to be true.) Now, why do the intelligent people leave Amarillo in mass droves? Because it absolutely sucks for young people or those who are not married. Everything is this town is geared towards soccer moms and married couples. A woman over 30 in Amarillo without at least 1 child is a rare thing, indeed. Try climbing the corporate ladder while stuck in some Amarillo branch. I'm afraid that is the very definition of career suicide. The younger, educated, professional people want more places that are sophisticated and classy. The want to go out for a few thingytails and not have to worry about becoming involved in a drunken brawl with some trailer park refugee resembling Larry the Cable Guy. They don't want to deal with yokels that look like they belong on Brokeback Mountain. They don't want to date single mothers that are overweight. They want to date women that are classy enough to wear a thingytail dress out and don't drink wine out of the box. Now, I really don't have a problem with married people, but there needs to be something that caters to those who either are not ready to get married or who have no desire to do so. Whenever a town becomes too homogenized, it begins to go stale. There needs to be a little variety in there to mix things up for the best possible outcome. When one makes blanket statements like, " This is a family town, by golly, and we sure don't want anything else around here.", it makes them come across as short sighted and somewhat ignorant.

Now, don't you have some funerals to protest, Rev. Phelps?

[westtexan]

petiepanzer said:

One thing that Amarillo seems to suffer from is a shortage of educated, talented people. Less than 25% of all people in the city hold a bachelor's degree and less than 10% hold an advanced degree. This is far below the national average and is not a good thing for the future of the city's economy. In today's market place, a college degree holds about the same weight as a high school diploma did 30 years ago and most employers are going to require a college degree for employment in the very near future. Now, I am not sure about you, but I went to school in the AISD from K-12, so I do know a little bit about the patterns of the young people here in Amarillo. The best and the brightest get the heck out of here asap. They go off to school in places like Austin, Dallas, College Station, Houston, and countless other schools out of state. Now, unless they have some type of family business to take over, they will never return to Amarillo. The rather unremarkable ones stay in Amarillo. Some manage to graduate from AC and then leave for another school in another town, and some manage to graduate from WT. Most, however, just stay in Amarillo and end up working some meanial job before they get married a few years out of high school. This is not a good thing for people to get married so young. I saw in that paper on tuesday that some couple was getting married when both of them had only graduated in 2006. Why, you may ask, is it such a bad thing for people to get married so young? Because no 19 year old kid is going to know what they want at such an age. When one gets married so soon, their intellectual growth usually comes to a grinding halt. Statistics seem to back this up. People that get married before the age of 25 are much more likely to end up divorced and their earning potential is cut significantly by such actions. People should not get married because they feel societal pressure to do so. That type of thinking is why the United States has the highest divorce rate in the world. People should only get married because that is where their heart is leading them. Unfortunately, in towns like Amarillo, people tend to get married because they feel it is expected of them. People have their whole lives to be married but they are only young once.

So, what does all this have to do with downtown Amarillo, you ask? Well, as has already been established, Amarillo suffers from a brain drain. (I don't mean to hurt anybody's feelings with this statement, but I have found this to be true.) Now, why do the intelligent people leave Amarillo in mass droves? Because it absolutely sucks for young people or those who are not married. Everything is this town is geared towards soccer moms and married couples.

Young smart people leave Amarillo...because of the LOW PAY and lack of corporate jobs.

Because the old money families in Amarillo...don't want any new competition...the AEDC will not recruit corporate jobs to Amarillo.

The average income in Amarillo...is like 60 percent below the Texas state average...but the cost of living in Amarillo...just keeps going up.

Since Bell Helicopter years ago...the only new jobs the AEDC has brought to Amarillo...are low-paying retail jobs.

Corporate offices are being moved out of Amarillo...and the AEDC has no interest in bringing more corporate jobs to town.


Young smart people leaving Amarillo has nothing to do with the lack of bars or entertainment....and everything to do with not being paid enough for a 4-year college graduate in Amarillo.

[Writer]

So, what does all this have to do with downtown Amarillo, you ask? Well, as has already been established, Amarillo suffers from a brain drain. (I don't mean to hurt anybody's feelings with this statement, but I have found this to be true.)

No feelings hurt here. It's downright INSULTING.

[bluefusion]

Hello all. Im new to this forum. I was born and raised in Amarillo till I left at 39yo. I tried for yrs to get on Talk Amarillo. But their website had banned me and i had never been on. I look forward to joining you great people and listening to your opinions and stating mine.

[petiepanzer]

westtexan said:

petiepanzer said:

One thing that Amarillo seems to suffer from is a shortage of educated, talented people. Less than 25% of all people in the city hold a bachelor's degree and less than 10% hold an advanced degree. This is far below the national average and is not a good thing for the future of the city's economy. In today's market place, a college degree holds about the same weight as a high school diploma did 30 years ago and most employers are going to require a college degree for employment in the very near future. Now, I am not sure about you, but I went to school in the AISD from K-12, so I do know a little bit about the patterns of the young people here in Amarillo. The best and the brightest get the heck out of here asap. They go off to school in places like Austin, Dallas, College Station, Houston, and countless other schools out of state. Now, unless they have some type of family business to take over, they will never return to Amarillo. The rather unremarkable ones stay in Amarillo. Some manage to graduate from AC and then leave for another school in another town, and some manage to graduate from WT. Most, however, just stay in Amarillo and end up working some meanial job before they get married a few years out of high school. This is not a good thing for people to get married so young. I saw in that paper on tuesday that some couple was getting married when both of them had only graduated in 2006. Why, you may ask, is it such a bad thing for people to get married so young? Because no 19 year old kid is going to know what they want at such an age. When one gets married so soon, their intellectual growth usually comes to a grinding halt. Statistics seem to back this up. People that get married before the age of 25 are much more likely to end up divorced and their earning potential is cut significantly by such actions. People should not get married because they feel societal pressure to do so. That type of thinking is why the United States has the highest divorce rate in the world. People should only get married because that is where their heart is leading them. Unfortunately, in towns like Amarillo, people tend to get married because they feel it is expected of them. People have their whole lives to be married but they are only young once.

So, what does all this have to do with downtown Amarillo, you ask? Well, as has already been established, Amarillo suffers from a brain drain. (I don't mean to hurt anybody's feelings with this statement, but I have found this to be true.) Now, why do the intelligent people leave Amarillo in mass droves? Because it absolutely sucks for young people or those who are not married. Everything is this town is geared towards soccer moms and married couples.

Young smart people leave Amarillo...because of the LOW PAY and lack of corporate jobs.

Because the old money families in Amarillo...don't want any new competition...the AEDC will not recruit corporate jobs to Amarillo.

The average income in Amarillo...is like 60 percent below the Texas state average...but the cost of living in Amarillo...just keeps going up.

Since Bell Helicopter years ago...the only new jobs the AEDC has brought to Amarillo...are low-paying retail jobs.

Corporate offices are being moved out of Amarillo...and the AEDC has no interest in bringing more corporate jobs to town.


Young smart people leaving Amarillo has nothing to do with the lack of bars or entertainment....and everything to do with not being paid enough for a 4-year college graduate in Amarillo.

Ahh, yes, the old money Amarillo families, the Amarilluminati, if you will. I take it you are referring to the big 5, or is it big 6. No names need to be mentioned because anybody who has ever grown up in Amarillo knows who they are. To be perfectly honest, I don't see them playing the role they once did in Amarillo and their influence seems to be waning as the years progress. There is a reason for this: the older generation is getting older and few of these old family members that are around my age are returning to Amarillo any more. I actually grew up with a lot of those people and used to run around with a number of them when I was in school. In fact, one of those members was my roommate in college 1 year. FI, let's take a look at a certain television pioneer here in Amarillo that likes to place signs around town. Out of 5 kids, the oldest son has stayed around Amarillo. There is another child who is an occasional interloper in Amarillo, also. The rest of them have all left Amarillo for greener pastures and the one who is my friend has no intentions of ever returning to live. Now, there was another wealthy family that didn't get along too well with the first distinguished gentelman. They were an old Oil and Gas family that had lots of children and were led by by 2 brothers who were also lawyers. Out of 14 kids between the 2 brothers, there is maybe 1 of them that actually stayed here in Amarillo. The rest are spread out all over the country. In fact, the main family even sold their house and has reportedly relocated to the DFW area. Now, there was another guy that was an Oil and Gas man a few years back who lived in Amarillo. He was a pretty sharp guy and he made over a billion dollars in 2005 alone. Some of the powers that be decided it would be a really good idea to run him out of town a few years back, though. That was a really smart idea on their part, because he was only fond of giving out lots of cash to various universities and a school like WT doesn't need the money anyhow. In fact, the only OM family I know of that still has a lot of their offspring returning to Amarillo are the bankers. For the most part, though, The OM dynasties are crumbling before their eyes and the OM Amarillo crowd doesn't wield the same type of influence they did 30 years ago. Now, there are a few people that own some car lots and other retail businesses who would like to step up and replace them, but they are really pipsqueaks compared to the OM crowd, anyhow.

Income that is 60% below the state average is a wild exaggeration, WT. They are about $1,000 per capita and $5,000 per household below the state average. That's not very good, though, when you consider that Texas is in the bottom 1/3 in per capita income nationally.
quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4803000.html

Now, when a company looks to expand their locations, they look at several factors. One of the top things they consider is employee retention. Let me ask you a question: do you think a company is going to move their people to a town that is going to bore them to tears? No, they want their people to be happy in their locations. That makes it much less likely that they will be willing to bolt for greener pastures. They want their employees to go out drinking after they get off of work because that is how networking happens. What they don't want are parents who can't put in the long hours or travel because of children. That's something that just goes without saying.

[karenew]

petiepanzer said:

A woman over 30 in Amarillo without at least 1 child is a rare thing, indeed. Try climbing the corporate ladder while stuck in some Amarillo branch. I'm afraid that is the very definition of career suicide.

This does describe me to a T. Moving here for my husband's job was great for him, but killed my career. I can't find a job that pays a decent salary (meaning over $8.50 an hour) and I have a B.A. So what did I do? Went back to school to earn another degree that will be useless here and counting the days till we move again. ~~ And I am over 30 without children also.

My dad works at Bell in HEB. (Hurst/Euless/Bedford) He told me that whenever Amarillo was awarded the V-22 (his project), the bosses were going to relocate everyone here. Workers threatened to quit- no one wanted to move here. Now when Bell is at any job fair in the nation the stipulation for getting hired with Bell is that the job is in Amarillo. If you want to work for Bell then you WILL live in Amarillo.

[texin67]

Amarillo does need higher paying jobs and needs to be more than the mall of the panhandle I agree. That being said my sister in law makes about $28,000 a year with only a high school education so there are decent paying jobs if you search them out. It took her a while and she is hoping that she can go back to school soon. She always wanted to go but never had the chance due to a family situation. Look around though you should be able to pick up something.