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Post by tcudavid on Jan 5, 2011 15:36:28 GMT -5
West Texan, I would love to see WT move to D1, but do they really have the community support to pull it off.
Tech is in the heart of Lubbock, while WT is 20 miles to the south of the center of Amarillo. As much as I'd like to say that doesn't make any difference, I think we all know that it does.
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Post by west-texan on Jan 5, 2011 18:10:35 GMT -5
WT would get a lot more support if they would play at a level that more people care about.
99.9 percent of people in Amarillo don't care to watch or keep up with D2 sports.
D2 is seen as small time...and people are bombarded with D1 football and basketball on TV.
Do you keep up with D2 sports yourself?
Most people don't give a rat's rear end about D2.
That is the problem in Amarillo with D2 sports at WT.
When WT was playing D1 basketball at the Amarillo Civic Center.
WT had over 1100 season ticket holders paying big bucks.
And now at D2...WT might have only about 100 season ticket holders.
And WT was charging higher prices 25 yrs ago at D1...than WT charges now.
WT lost a lot of community support because they dropped to D2.
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Post by west-texan on Jan 5, 2011 18:24:12 GMT -5
What I have against WT playing at the D2 level is..........the lack of solid fan support. If everyone in Amarillo got behind WT like they do Tech in Lubbock. And packed the stadium for every game. Then I would feel different about D2. It's a dilemma...and this is what an ACU fan says about the lack of fan support for D2. "Most people have better things to do than follow D2 football." WT and ACU both have good players and good coaches...but people want to see D1 sports. What do you do about it...except move to the level that fans care about?  |
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Post by tcudavid on Jan 6, 2011 12:10:36 GMT -5
Here's what I remember. Back in the early 80's when WT was Division 1, there was almost no one in the stands at the football games. The teams were bad, going 0-10-1 in 1983.
At least in Division 2, they have averaged over 11,000 in attendance since 2005.
As for basketball, the Men's team has averaged almost 1000 in attendance this year. The Women's team has averaged over 1,100.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love for them to be D1, and hope that happens someday. But for you to continually say Amarillo can support WT the way Lubbock supports Tech just isn't being honest. Most people aren't going to travel the 20 miles to watch a basketball game. (especially on a weeknight)
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Post by west-texan on Jan 6, 2011 14:05:14 GMT -5
Here's what I remember. Back in the early 80's when WT was Division 1, there was almost no one in the stands at the football games. The teams were bad, going 0-10-1 in 1983. In 1981...WT was 7-4 tied for 1st in the conference...and averaged 11,000 or so fans. WT had no full-time athletic director from 1971 until 1985. WT had no marketing...and crappy ugly uniforms. So of course WT did not fill the stadium back then. ;D Then WT had crappy coaches from 1982 until 1984. And still no marketing...and still no athletic director. 11,000 is pitiful attendance for college football. Almost no one in Amarillo cares about D2. Comparing WT to the rest of D2 for attendance is like bragging you out-ran a wheelchair guy. ;D Most D2 schools are in small towns. WT is in the Amarillo MSA with 250,000 people in Potter-Randall-Armstrong-Carson counties. At the Amarillo Civic Center WT had over 1000 season ticket holders. WT averaged double the attendance or more in Amarillo at D1 with higher ticket prices. In Canyon, WT has only about 100 season ticket holders...and the rest might be paying $3 or nothing. In Amarillo...WT was charging higher prices 25 years ago than they are now. WT was probably making 10 times as much money from basketball at D1 in Amarillo. ........................At D1...WT would go back to playing at the Amarillo Civic Center. Playing basketball in Canyon is a big mistake causes WT to lose a LOT of money. ;D More WT students went to D1 games in Amarillo than go to watch D2 in Canyon. |
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Post by west-texan on Jan 6, 2011 14:34:53 GMT -5
This is what it really looks like at D2 basketball games in Canyon. Good players and good coaches. But almost no one cares much about D2 around here. An ocean of empty seats causing WT to lose a lot of money. WT did much better at D1 at the Amarillo Civic Center...............................  |
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Post by west-texan on Jan 6, 2011 15:41:58 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I'd love for them to be D1, and hope that happens someday. But for you to continually say Amarillo can support WT the way Lubbock supports Tech just isn't being honest. Most people aren't going to travel the 20 miles to watch a basketball game. (especially on a weeknight) You are aware That people drive from Amarillo all the time to see Texas Tech football games...right? ;D And people drive from Amarillo to watch Oklahoma State games at Stillwater. Kimbrough stadium is only 10 miles from the south side of Amarillo. And the people with money to spend on D1 football live in SW Amarillo. I bet people drive more than 10 miles across Fort Worth to TCU games...right? Maybe the people in north Amarillo are too lazy to drive to Canyon. But put a winning D1 product on the field at WT...and people with money will drive. |
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Post by willard on Jan 6, 2011 18:58:20 GMT -5
"But put a winning D1 product on the field at WT...and people with money will drive."
Seriously now, west-texan, if WT went D-I, just who do you think WT could schedule at home that would pack Kimbrough?.....Be realistic and not one of your fantasyland answers......
And if WT is losing at D-I, watch out.....It's back to crowds like Ronnie Jones' teams drew.....where the band was the largest part of the crowd.....
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Post by west-texan on Jan 6, 2011 22:09:38 GMT -5
It's beyond me why you think losing would persist at WT for any time.
1. You only hire a coach who is a proven winner.
2. You don't tolerate losing...and you fire losing coaches if they don't produce wins in 3 years.
3. You get out and market the football team...which is something that McBroom does not do. ;D
Georgia State and Lamar have started D1 football programs from scratch.
And everyone is pleased with how they have already produced some wins.
WT already has an established football program.
Why on earth do you think losing would persist at WT for any length of time?
Losing only persists if you tolerate losing or try to mess with the coach's recruiting. ;D
You don't hire idiots like Ronnie Jones.
And you don't tell coaches like Stan McGarvey that they can't recruit out of state players.
Tell me why you think losing would persist at WT?
Next question? ;D
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Post by willard on Jan 7, 2011 8:46:47 GMT -5
Answer my question first! Who do you think WT could schedule at home in Kimbrough that would pack Kimbrough?
Nothing was said about losing persisting....Only stating the obvious if losing was consistent....
Now answer my question without your irrelevant fantasyland remarks....
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Post by tcudavid on Jan 7, 2011 20:12:49 GMT -5
If they move to D1 & play teams from the Southland Conference, that's not going to bring in people. And it's going to be real hard to get real D1 teams to want to come to Canyon to play them.
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Post by willard on Jan 7, 2011 20:55:33 GMT -5
"If they move to D1 & play teams from the Southland Conference, that's not going to bring in people. And it's going to be real hard to get real D1 teams to want to come to Canyon to play them."
Exactly, tcudavid! You're right.
West-texan, once again, answer the question.....Who would WT be able to schedule at home in Kimbrough that would pack Kimbrough?.....
It was rarely packed in the past when WT was D-I.....In fact, WT draws better now in D-II than it did even when Kerbel was the coach.....And don't start copy-pasting junk and rambling on about coaches, marketing, out-of state players, ADs, bumperstickers.....
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Post by tcudavid on Jan 9, 2011 17:23:56 GMT -5
I know that North Texas (in Denton) moved to D1 a few years back with mixed results. They have won their conference (Sun Belt) a few times, but they don't really play any big D1 teams at home. They have played some good teams on the road, as I'm sure they feel they are getting some visibility from it. Their record since 2005 is 13-58.
If WT were to go to D1 someday, I think it would be great if they could play teams like Texas Tech, Kansas, Kansas St, Oklahoma St. on the road. At least that way they could raise their visibility, and then try to build a program from there. Most big programs won't agree to a home & home series. They might agree to come to Canyon if WT will play at their place multiple years.
(Willard - I have to say that I agree with you on the copy & pasting stuff. That gets real old real fast.)
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Post by willard on Jan 17, 2011 17:13:34 GMT -5
Being a D-I program does not automatically guarantee packed, over-flow stadiums and financial heaven…..Particularly with D-I FCS schools, which is where WT would be if it moved to D-I…..Just look at the following NCAA 2009 FB home attendance numbers (source http://www.ncaa.org):
2009 Football Average Home Attendance (2010 not yet available)
•D-I FBS (big boys-not where WT would be)……45,545
•D-I FCS (smaller-where WT would be)………… 8,025
•D-II (where WT is now)………………………….. 3,458
WT averaged 10,760 in 2010…..That may not seem big, but it’s better than D-I FCS…..Obviously no packed stadiums….. “11,000 is pitiful attendance for college FB” so said wext-texan…..Well, 11,000 is 37% better than the average D-I FCS…..
Some other interesting stats:
If WT went D-I, it might be able to schedule some FCS schools at Kimbrough…..
Below are 2010 FB & VB and 2009 MBB & WBB home attendance figures for 15 D-I FCS schools compared to WT. The schools: SHSU, SFA, SE La, NW State, Nicholls State, McNeese, N. CO, S. Dakota, S. Dakota St., N. Dakota, N. Dakota St., E. Wash., S. Utah, N. Ariz. and Idaho St…..Not exactly the big boys…..
●Ave. D-I FCS 2010 FB attendance=8,078…….WT=10,760
●Ave. D-I FCS 2010 VB attendance= 495…….WT= 575
●Ave. D-I FCS 2009 MBB attendance=1,566….WT= 1,151
●Ave. D-I FCS 2009 WBB attendance= 985…..WT= 1,337
So, except for MBB, WT already outdraws D-I FCS schools above…..No matter how you spin it, most D-I FCS programs have huge risks with little financial reward…..Budgets have to be covered by student fees and/or outside donors because attendance won’t do it…..
BTW, E. Wash. won the 2010 FCS nat’l championship and averaged a whopping 6,473 fans at home.
A move to D-I by WT might seem exciting (and WT's attendance might increase a little unless they started losing).....but attendance numbers for similar-type FCS schools don’t prove that fans flock to their games just because they’re D-I….Budgets, however, increase dramatically regardless.....
That would mean “supporters-in-name-only” who don’t do anything now except complain would have to cough up some bucks…..Or WT would be in a financial wreck…..
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Post by west-texan on Jan 17, 2011 20:05:39 GMT -5
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